Should Shipping Cert. be dated?

[akomolpa]

Dear all,
If LC called for Shipping Certificate certifying that the ship is not more than 25th year of age.
The Shipping Cert. presented was not dated.
Is it a discrepancy?

Rgds,
Ajcha

[narisa]

Dear Akomolpa
Shipping cert must be dated as per ISBP para 8.
rgds.

[cristiand969]

Dear Akomolpa
Shipping cert must be dated as per ISBP para 8.
rgds.

.
it is not always mandatory that a shipping certificate should be dated as it will depend on the content of documents. (art. 13 of ISBP)
.
The question has not be posted along with full information regarding content of the document so that one to give a complete answer. For example it is clear that when document makes reference to the age of vessel it would be normal to be dated as a doc. issuance before one year could raise question whether or not the vessel is now over 25 years old. However if the document in question bears along the vessel the voyage number, it is clear that such declaration has been given at least at the time of BL issuance and there is a clear linkage on that which does not require a dated document.
other comments appreciated.

[nesarul]

Dear,

it is not always mandatory that a shipping certificate should be dated as it will depend on the content of documents. (art. 13 of ISBP)

.
I disagree with the above quotation but agreed with the conclusion of cristain.
my opinion is that
Any certificate and deceleration must be dated but if any certificate complied with ISBP paragraph 13 then the requirement of date on that certificate has been fulfilled.
Regards
Nesar

[akomolpa]

Dear all,

Many thanks for allof your comments.

Rgds,
akomolpa

[cristiand969]

Dear,

it is not always mandatory that a shipping certificate should be dated as it will depend on the content of documents. (art. 13 of ISBP)

.
I disagree with the above quotation but agreed with the conclusion of cristain.
my opinion is that
Any certificate and deceleration must be dated but if any certificate complied with ISBP paragraph 13 then the requirement of date on that certificate has been fulfilled.
Regards
Nesar

.
Dear Nesar,
I'll have to stick to the ISBP and to disagree to your disagreement and quote: whether other documents require dating will depend on the nature and content of document in question. For example if I came across with a credit requiring a shipping certificate certifying that the named vessel belong to regular line and such a document certifies the above without actually having being dated, I would not have any basis for rejection. The UCP 600 prevail over ISBP and document fulfilled its function.

[loankim]

dear all,

"...dating will depend on the nature and content of document in question..."- not too easy to apply this content in practice
.
i personally agree with Cristiand. When that cer is examined, it can only be assessed based on the following:
+ correct the issuer ( shipping lines )
+ correct the statement as LC required
.
sometimes, lacking of the statement BUT including the " year of build "- from which indicate the age of vessel . I wonder : is it accepted ?
.
comments appreciated

[nesarul]

Dear Cristian,
there are there issues that result disagreement between you and me. such as:
1.

whether other documents require dating will depend on the nature and content of document in question

2. an example as a proof of fulfill function]
3. .concept of fulfill function [from where you tend to override ISBP to prevail UCP]
here i want to express my logic over it[pls correct me if i go in wrong way]
Point 1:

whether other documents require dating will depend on the nature and content of document in question

:
The requirement of dating of a certificate has been clearly established by ISBP paragraph 8.[emphasis added]. You can also consider ISBP paragraph 181 in line with it.
Hence one can not exclude the requirement of dating on a certificate on above quoting reasoning....
Point 2:

an example as a proof of fulfill function]

Here i put another example for your consideration. assume a same certificate has been asked on a credit as you mentioned in your previous posting..the certificate presented accordingly as you mentioned wiTh a date BUT WITHOUT SIGNATURE.
IF SOMEONE REJECT THE DOCUMENT ON ABOVE GROUND, CAN YOU REJECT THIS DISCREPANCY, IF YES, PLS PROVIDE YOUR LOGIC?
Point 3:

concept of fulfill function [from where you tend to override ISBP to prevail UCP]

I have no disagreement with you that your mentioned certificate satisfied the requirement that is :"fulfill function" but it must be within the purview of proper structuring of a document,, such as if you require a certificate on any particular matter then is must be signed and dated.....
regards
nesar

[cristiand969]

OK, let's recap, Nesar.
.
When receiving an undated packing list certifying how the goods were packed you will consider discrepant on the basis that packing list is not dated.
.
Also, I assume you will reject as well an undated quality certificate which makes reference to the related invoice number (without mentioning also the date of invoice)
.
Art. 8 of ISBP make a general reference for certifications or declarations within OTHER DOCUMENT.
.
In art. 13 of ISBP the only mandatory instructions for docs to be dated is for drafts, transport documents and insurance documents. For others there is room for bankers judgement to establish compliance.
.

the certificate presented accordingly as you mentioned wiTh a date BUT WITHOUT SIGNATURE.
IF SOMEONE REJECT THE DOCUMENT ON ABOVE GROUND, CAN YOU REJECT THIS DISCREPANCY, IF YES, PLS PROVIDE YOUR LOGIC?

.
I believe there is still a confusion between the requirement of dating a document and signing it, the latter is well established in art.37 ISBP (Certificates do require a signature). My logic follows UCP and ISBP together with my 15 years experience in commercial contracts, maritime transportation, insurance and banking. Maybe not to much but still to figure out when I step up on moving sands and asks for an opinion. Also it is very helpfull as well Commentary on UCP.
.
To sum up the above, if I received an undated certificate for which the date will matter due to the L/C instructions or nature of the document establishing the occurence of an event, I will clearly consider discrepant. If not I will pay documents.
.
best regards